Talk:Melange (fictional drug)

Spice agony was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 December 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Melange (fictional drug). The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

Science Fiction Mid‑importance

	Speculative fiction portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Science Fiction, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science fiction on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Science FictionWikipedia:WikiProject Science FictionTemplate:WikiProject Science Fictionscience fiction articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Novels: Sci-fi Low‑importance

	Novels portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to novels, novellas, novelettes and short stories on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.NovelsWikipedia:WikiProject NovelsTemplate:WikiProject Novelsnovel articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by Science fiction task force (assessed as Mid-importance).

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Housman, Andrew (July 12, 2020). "Dune: What Is 'The Spice'—Melange Drug Explained". ScreenRant. Retrieved January 21, 2021.

Archives

Archive 1

Requested move, July 21, 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. The dab change in the proposal confused things. Maybe relist and notify one of the projects for greater exposure? — kwami (talk) 18:19, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(non-admin closure)

Melange (fictional drug) → Spice (Dune) – Spice. Dune. The two go together like salt and pepper, peaches and cream, Garfunkel and Oates. My spellchecker doesn't even have "Melange" in it, so it and I are either illiterate or we just missed this name, even after long ago reading the book and watching the film. Thought of putting this up for a requested move after a discussion at Robsinden's talk page where, after a lifetime of ignorance, an editor finally told me what Spice is made of (Am I the only one who didn't know!)! Randy Kryn 2:47, 21 July 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 14:52, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't really explained your justification for this proposed move.— TAnthony^Talk 03:14, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Common name would cover it. Recognizability and naturalness as well. Proof of it being the common name, I have none, and maybe "Spice Melange" is the common name. Sometimes something seems obvious, and it may be or may not be. Since this has never been fully discussed on this talk page a move request at least opens up a forum for that conversation. Randy Kryn 3:56, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
Melange should be in your dictionary... so the "fictional" disambiguator is useful. I'm agreeable to any name, though spice melange may be most natural (and apparently 'official'). I would agree that "spice (fictional drug)" is marginally more recognizable than "melange (fictional drug)". --Izno (talk) 11:48, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
TAnthony, does 'Spice Melange' make more sense? I only read the first two books and saw the movie a long time ago, so am not overly knowledgeable about the canon. Thanks. Randy Kryn 12:26, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're pinging incorrect. You need to produce a link to the user name/user talk page when you make your edit. This isn't the only place I've noticed. --Izno (talk) 13:00, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I'm certainly code-challenged, and have seen several different types of pings but still can't always recall the code sequence. Is my fix the correct way to go? Randy Kryn 13:54, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Any way to produce a link to one of those two pages is fine so long as you do so in the same edit that you signed with. {{u}} works, {{ping}} works, [[User:<Username>]] works, [[User talk:<Username>]] works... there are of course many others. --Izno (talk) 14:03, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'm de facto King of the Dune nerds here (or at least the most active editor remaining) LOL, so I just did a cursory search of both "melange" and "spice" in my e-books of the original six novels and found a couple of interesting things. For one, Frank Herbert seems to never use the term "spice melange" (though Brian Herbert does in his intro to God Emperor). But Frank sometimes writes phrases like, "the source of the spice, melange" or "the geriatric spice, melange", which to me equates grammatically to "the origin of the beverage, Mountain Dew".

However across the six novels he uses "melange" and "spice" pretty interchangeably. Overall he uses "spice" (440 times) more than "melange" (300 times), but while melange is almost always used by itself, there are many instances of "spice agony", "spice addiction", "spice mass" etc. So I kind of feel like they're pretty equally used in the text.

That said, I have to admit that at first I rankled at the idea of the move, but in thinking about it, "spice" does feel like the more familiar term. That is, spice (fictional drug).— TAnthony^Talk 01:11, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nice research. If you're for Spice (fictional drug) then I'll add my Support to that phrasing. ~~And according to your research maybe the bold links in the first sentence of the page should be redone (especially 'spice melange' as the formal name)~~ (struck out the sentence, I see you've done this already, may the spice be with you). Randy Kryn 9:33, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Oppose - Nice proposal. It might meet the guidelines, but there can be a character called "Spice" in Dune, even if nonexistent. And I don't think "Spice (Dune drug)" make things easier. "Spice (fictional Dune drug)" would be nice, but I'm uncertain. --George Ho (talk) 00:53, 28 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Come on, George. Choosing disambiguation based on nonexistent topics is absurd. Is Gridlock (Doctor Who) a bad title just because there could one day be a Doctor Who character named Gridlock? --BDD (talk) 20:17, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, "spice" is used as term for drugs in some Star Wars media; it's a bit unclear to me whether it's supposed to represent a single drug or not. But I think this is far and away the primary topic for "Spice (fictional drug)", whether that's the title or just a redirect. The Star Wars usage is probably an homage. --BDD (talk) 20:17, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It might be an homage, but the Kessel spice run is all over the place in Star Wars (and is the run that one of the protagonists so famously got pulled over on by an Imperial cruiser, losing his cargo, making a certain Hutt unhappy with him, and you know the rest of the story). --Izno (talk) 22:45, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The spice that BDD is mentioning is this spice. --Izno (talk) 22:51, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The proposed is too generic and recognized as this topic only within an established context of the work of fiction. :Even within the fiction, it is "the spice", not a proper name but an allusion to something extremely well-known. Melange is the in-universe proper name.

"Spice" is not in your dictionary because of Dune.

The current title is perfect. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:25, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Izno and SmokeyJoe. Best, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 19:11, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose the oppose has it. Melange might be the proper name, but I don't think it's the common name. If both were referenced in a sentence to an average Wikipedia reader it seems "Spice" would be the name they'd recognize. Just a guess though. Through this and a previous discussion I learned what the spice is made of, and that's enough for one foray into the realm. Thanks for the conversation here. Randy Kryn 21:40, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 23 October 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Melange (fictional drug) be renamed and moved to Melange (Dune).

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Melange (fictional drug) → Melange (Dune) – Without commenting on whether the title should be "Spice", it should be moved to the proper disambiguation. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ASUKITE 15:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Frost 16:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Per the MOS, we prefer the generic class (fictional drug) over a franchise or other descriptors, unless there are other fictional drugs called melange. "Spice" would be a different case since other franchises like Star Wars have co-opted the term.— TAnthony^Talk 14:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, I'm not seeing (fictional drug) as a commonly used disambiguator.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I should have specified, per WP:NCDAB #3: Parenthetical disambiguation. A disambiguating word or phrase can be added in parentheses. The word or phrase in parentheses should be: the generic class (avoiding proper nouns, as much as possible) that includes the topic, as in Mercury (element), Seal (emblem) ...

Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 21:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support as primary, move Mélange to Mélange (rock) or Melange (rock). Randy Kryn (talk) 04:18, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that would actually be Mélange (geology). (Rock) would refer to an individual, specific rock. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:28, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thanks. Melange now goes to disamb., but page views indicate that the fictional drug may meet primary requirements. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:25, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Novels and WikiProject Science Fiction have been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 15:06, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Relisted to seek additional input, including alternative proposal altering the WP:PTOPIC ASUKITE 15:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Melange. Theparties (talk) 00:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Melange (dune), Strongly Oppose move to primary. The Viennese Coffee - Wiener Melange (current WP:NATURAL disambiguation), called simply Melange definitely beats it on WP:PT2, having been the go-to coffee for a few hundred years and was the precursor to the Cappuchino, as coffee was brought to the western world via Vienna following the Austro-Turkish War (History_of_coffee#Europe if you're interested), so there is no primary topic. If anything, the coffee might be primary (and could do with some expansion, so I've added that to my backlog), as it is at de:Melange (de-wiki doesn't seem to have an article about the Dune use fwiw though, but does have one for de:Spice (Droge) which apparently is real world use and the english language version of that is Synthetic cannabinoids), due to its long-term historic significance. Given that the Coffee article and WikiProject Austria and Food and Drink, wasn't even notified of this discussion, procedurally, this PTOPIC discussion would be invalid as it stands right now. Raladic (talk) 22:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per TAnthony. The current disambiguator is compliant with the MOS and says exactly what this topic is. Amending to "Dune" would not be helpful and contrary to WP:RECOGNIZE as not everyone has heard of that series. — Amakuru (talk) 09:14, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Melange (Dune). Fictional TV show elements are disambiguated by TV show name, and that's seen consistently for fictional media/franchise elements, too: Sandworm (Dune), Warthog (Halo). Hyphenation Expert (talk) 11:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is first and foremost a literary element, and anyway the guideline you cite refers to episodes and characters. WP:NCDAB #3 is the applicable guideline overall, and it says what it says about the preference of generic terms to proper nouns, i.e. franchises and show names (see above). The element example in the TV guideline (Serenity (Firefly vessel) vs Serenity (Firefly episode)) is there to illustrate what to do when further disambiguation is needed for an episode, which normally would include only be disambiguated with the show name. In the case of sandworm, the term specifically requires further disambiguation because there is more than one notable fictional sandworm (Dune and Beetlejuice) listed on the disambig page sandworm. I would argue that Warthog (Halo) actually violates WP:NCDAB, but a number of articles do and I'm not going to intervene there.— TAnthony^Talk 16:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nomination, Raladic and Hyphenation Expert. In addition to characters from books, films, TV series, video games, etc who are disambiguated via the title of such character's source, such as Mary Crawford (Mansfield Park), rather than the opaque Mary Crawford (character), most Wikipedia main headers that delineate other elements tend to follow the same disambiguating pattern — Alliance (Firefly), Asari (Mass Effect), Citadel (Mass Effect), Combine (Half-Life), Cone of Silence (Get Smart), Homelands (Fables), Iron Throne (A Song of Ice and Fire), Liyue (Genshin Impact), Maquis (Star Trek), Men in Black (The X-Files), Merryland (Oz), Section 31 (Star Trek), Syndicate (The X-Files), Watcher (Highlander) or Wayback Machine (Peabody's Improbable History), to name but fifteen.

None of these is a redirect, an episode title or an individual character, although some, such as "Asari", "Men in Black" or "Watcher" describe groups or species of beings, while others, such as "Alliance", "Maquis" or "Syndicate" represent organizations. Attempting to devise parenthetical qualifiers analogous to the nominated form — Melange (fictional drug) — would be unwieldy, to say the least, as in Alliance (Firefly), being theoretically proposed for renaming to Alliance (fictional corporate supergovernment). Thus, Order of the Phoenix (fictional organisation) might be nominated for renaming to Order of the Phoenix (Harry Potter). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:35, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]