Talk:Chord (music)

Number of notes in a chord

I have just finished editing this page. As Otto Karolyi says in his famous "Introducing music" (p.63): "Two or more notes sounded simultaneously are known as a chord. The vertical combination of three sounds: fundamental note, third and fifth, gives us a chord known as a triad". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andeggs (talk • contribs) 18:42, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

This is nonstandard. Note that the article contains no information on two note "chords". Hyacinth 09:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

As George T. Jones explains in HarperCollins College Outline Music Theory (1994, ISBN 0064671682), "Two tones sounding together are usually termed an interval, while three or mores tones are called a chord."

Again, "When three or more notes are sounded together, the combination is called a CHORD [emphasis theirs]." Surmani, Andrew (2004). Essentials of Music Theory: A Complete Self-Study Course for All Musicians. ISBN 0739036351.

Very puzzling. I just picked up and opened, at random, a book of Haydn quartets, and I'm looking at the end of the Allegro of Op 55 No 2. The movement is in F major, it ends in what is undeniably a perfect cadence, and the final ... ummmm .... combination of notes is (bottom to top) ... F, F, A, F. This is not an isolated instance - there are probably hundreds of examples of perfect closes, which absolutely do assert a key, but where the fifth is absent. If I am to believe what the article claims - ie that we should not call such a combination of sounds a chord, because it contains only two notes - then I can't help wondering what the point of defining a chord actually is. It doesn't seem to correspond to anything which fulfils a unique musical function. --Stephen Burnett 16:45, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

This was a genuine attempt to elicit an explanation. Can nobody explain why I'm not allowed to attach the name "chord" to a combination of notes with only two degrees of the scale, despite the fact that it is clearly acting as one and performing a clearly defined harmonic function? Moreover, this is not just any transient harmonic function, but the most crucially important in classical western harmony - the tonic in a V-I progression which ends a movement. --Stephen Burnett 10:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

You didn't provide a reference, but I'm not going to be picayune and demand that you do so before discussing this further. Maybe this is a legitimate dispute (over the chord-ness of 2 notes only). If so, then maybe this should be rewritten in the article to reflect this academic disagreement (so long as it doesn't bend the lead out of shape too much). Perhaps a section on scholarship? In any case, references saying 2 notes do make a chord would be helpful. +ILike2BeAnonymous 19:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

The reference I provided was an example from practical usage. It's not a dispute - just an observation that common musical practice appears to differ from the dictionary definitions which many here seem attached to. Given that many two-note combinations can and do fulfil a very well-defined harmonic function, and seem to do it pretty well - well enough in Haydn's judgement, anyway - I'd really, really, really like to know what is special about a "chord" - ie the 3 note variety - which makes it worth defining? What is so special about it, if it does not have the exclusive ability to fulfill the function of acting as a building block of musical harmony? --Stephen Burnett 20:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not the trinity that's "holy", it's Wikipedia policy to cite sources, especially in case of dispute. What we have, though friendly and collaborative, is a dispute: we disagree on what the text of the article should be. I don't believe it is "picayune" to request that people criticizing my work, for which I did consult sources, find sources which support their arguments.

My quick answer to your question, however, is unsupported by citation: Since two notes may, in context, fully imply a chord, that would make them that three note chord. In context they play the part of a chord, but they're not a chord. I assume Haydn was well enough away of this and had some sort of way to discuss incomplete versus complete "chords". If he was not, I believe many theorists and composers do today. Hyacinth (talk) 22:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Diads, or diad chords

It is easy to find mention of "diad chords" on the web. How much of that qualifies as reliable sourcing, I do not know. This was the first google hit just now. I have to disagree about two notes "being" the implied three note chord. What is strongly implied in the mind of one listener may be entirely absent in another's. While some instances may have a diad nailed into a solid cadence that admits no ambiguity, there will be other cases as well, where a variety of different chords may be implied by a single diad. Music, after all, must balance between familiarity and surprise, if it is to be at all interesting or engaging.

That the article is missing information on two-note chords merely means that information is yet to be added. __Just plain Bill (talk) 13:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I think what makes the biggest difference as to whether a dyad will be perceived as a chord is whether or not it is part of a progression, or whether it is just two notes (context), and that a mandolin and banjo website would primarily be considering dyads as part of progressions. Hyacinth (talk) 16:37, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Two questions here:

• Are two notes perceived as a chord when heard?

As you say, it depends on context. I believe that context includes the level of musical experience on the part of the listener. Certainly a simultaneous pair of notes may be heard as concordant or dissonant, as a sound in itself, or as indicating a "fuller" chord. Sequential pairs of notes may or may not be heard as the beginnings of an arpeggio... for example, lots of major-mode tunes (in melodic traditions) end with a 1,3,1 sequence strongly implying the I chord, very often as part of a V, I cadential ending. (Where there is a chordal accompaniment to such tunes, it may very well vary from time to time, or among individual accompanists. Not uncommon for a C-E pair to suggest an A minor chord in one spot, and a C major chord in another, for example. For another example, in D major, an accidental natural C may be usually accompanied by a C major chord in one tune, and a D7 in another.)

I think the present question is better framed as:

• May two notes be called a chord in discussion?

I think there is a case to be made for calling two notes a chord in some contexts. Various authors will differ. Some may insist that there must be at least three notes present, before calling any given sound a "chord," but diad or dyad chords are certainly spoken (and written) of as such. See also Power chord.

Seeing this (at the end of the section) is what prompted me to revisit this here. __Just plain Bill (talk) 18:43, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

If you all could cite a source or sources this discussion may have been over long ago. You may not cite Wikipedia. Hyacinth (talk) 20:59, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Was there a point in what you just typed? The sources are there for anyone who cares to go looking. There's one (Karolyi) right at the top of this section. What has "long ago" got to do with it, anyway? __Just plain Bill (talk) 21:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Without a copy of Karolyi in front of me, I'm reluctant to add the cite requested. Again, this needs to be addressed by someone who knows and cares, and has the time to spend on this. Off to practice my two-note chords double stops. __Just plain Bill (talk) 02:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The question of whether two notes can be called a chord seems to have stopped without resolution. On the article page it is currently (Nov. 2017) answered affirmatively. Is this the consensus of knowledgeable editors using good sources? If so, shouldn't there be a statement to that effect here? I see that the references cited are contradictory, one saying 2, the other 3. Kdammers (talk) 13:10, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

The resolution may be found in the article, where “set of pitches consisting of two or more (usually three) notes” has stood unchallenged for years now. (I got my hands on a copy of Karolyi’s book, and added that cite.) The text reflects what two differing reliable sources say. Now I will go change the parenthesis to “usually three or more” to reflect the Benward and Saker reference more clearly. Thanks for drawing attention to this. Just plain Bill (talk) 14:23, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Opening sentence

The opening sentence of this article reads "A chord in music is any set of notes that is heard as if sounding simultaneously."

It then cites Benward & Saker (2003). Music: In Theory and Practice, Vol. I, p. 67&359. Seventh Edition. ISBN 978-0-07-294262-0.

I own this book and can pledge that it specifically defines a chord as "three or more pitches sounding simultaneously."DaddyTwoFoot (talk) 23:02, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Later in the article, Ottó Károlyi's Introducing Music is cited as saying, on page 63, that "Two or more notes sounding simultaneously are known as a chord." I have the 1982 Penguin printing of that book open in front of me now, and that is indeed what it says. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 23:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Right, my point being that the opening sentence is an erroneous citation. The book does not match what this article states the book says. I'm aware that other sources say it is two or more pitches, and some say that it's three or more. This book says it's three or more, so any citation of it should reflect that.74.85.202.167 (talk) 23:37, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Nothing is stopping you from fixing it. I haven't looked to see if broken or arpeggiated (un-simultaneous) chords are cited, but that seems uncontroversial enough. __Just plain Bill (talk) 00:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

The true definition of the chord.

Unfortunately I see that many people confuse harmony with chords, harmony is produced when two or more sounds are played simultaneously, while chords are three or more different notes played simultaneously, a chord must necessarily have harmony for it to sound good and coherent. . and the melodies have to be in harmony with the chords (and vice versa) and with the bass etc. Pedro alberto ramirez (talk) 03:12, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

hence the combination of two notes is called harmonic intervals Pedro alberto ramirez (talk) 03:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I hope you take me into account and can modify this definition to that a chord is the combination of three or more different notes or tones. Pedro alberto ramirez (talk) 03:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)