Talk:Telugu language

Satavahana coins

The Satavahana coins are inscribed in Prakrit and Tamil, this is the current expert opinion of scholars such as Iravatham Mahadevan and C. Somasundara Rao (A Telugu professor of history and archaeology) (Mahadevan 2020 Early Tamil epigraphy, 2nd edition, p. 237-243, and C. Somasundara Rao 1997, a note on bilingual legends on Satavahana coins pp. 17-21). Sircar outdated conclusions have been thoroughly debunked by the other two references. The script used is Tamil Brahmi and the inscriptions follow Tamil Brahmi grammatical and phonological conventions perfectly (the term 'Dravidian script' is not recognised in mainstream epigraphy). Please read the other two references before making any edits and discuss as appropriate.Metta79 (talk) 12:54, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

@Reo kwon: Carla M. Sinopoli is an anthropologist not an epigraphist. The views of specialists take precedence. Both Iravatham Mahadevan and Harry Falk are world renowned epigraphists (Falk probably the leading expert on ancient Indian scripts), and they both confirm this is Tamil Brahmi:

https://www.academia.edu/48899029/_2021_Fr%C3%BChstadien_des_vir%C4%81ma_in_indischen_Schriften

Besides Carla does not say anything specific about these specific coins in that text you cite. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you are genuinely unaware why this is without a doubt a Tamil Brahmi inscription (and was likely used by the Satavahanas for trade purposes, as only Prakrit and Tamil were the administrative languages in use at the time in South India). So I will try and educate you. This article by this user summarises many of the points covered by Mahadevan:

https://www.academia.edu/68666480/Tamil_language_in_the_Satavahana_Bilingual_Coins

Please read this first. If you still have any doubts I can answer them, and perhaps attach some images from Mahadevan's article. Metta79 (talk) 23:05, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Acording to experts Satavahana coins has only Prakrit and Tamil. The tamil portion is written in Tamil brahmi script.

Meaning of the increption.

Tamil increption: агасап-Ku vacitti - makan - ku tiru -pulumavi-ku

English Transl. : Of the King Vasishthiputra Sri Pulumavi.

The word Aracan only available in Tamil, means King.

The word Makan, Magan only available in Tamil, means Son.

The suffix word Ku only available in Tamil,

The word Tiru, Thiru only available in Tamil, means Shree in Aryan language.

Proof:

https://books.google.co.in/books?redir_esc=y&id=DZBkAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Satavahana Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 09:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Antiquity

It is important to understand that the Rēnāti Chōla inscriptions in Kadapa district (575 CE) are the earliest "long" inscriptions in Telugu, but aren't actually the "first ever writings".

As of now, we have several individual Telugu words dated till 100 CE and many personal and place names in Sanskrit/Prakrit texts till c.200 BCE. All these must be considered for understanding the antiquity of Telugu language.

Besides revered linguistics and academicians like FC Southworth, K Mahadeva Sastri mentioned the dating of Old Telugu as c.200 BCE.

And of course, a language is always older than its writings.

Source: Historical Grammar of Telugu by Korada Mahadeva Sastri; Early Telugu Inscriptions by Budharaju Radhakrishna. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 15:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Before Rēnāti Chōla inscriptions in Kadapa district (575 CE), there were no Telugu increption found in Telugu script. The rules Before Rēnāti Cholas like Satavahanas, Andhra Ikshvaku use Prakrit as their official language and they used only Prakrit and Sanskrit in the increption. Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 18:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Language antiquity is seen not just by the full-length inscriptions but also by the loanwords and traces of occurance and other indirect evidences.

Check the attached citations properly. And don't vandalise the page. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 18:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Language antiquity is measured a language's own literature, increption with own scripts. You are claming Prakrit increption with Prakrit Brahmi script for Telugu Antiquity. (talk) 06:30, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Tirukodimadachengunrur What Anandwiki.ind (talk) has mentioned is right. We are talking about short inscriptions. Rēnāti Chōla inscriptions are the first "long" inscriptions. The article clearly distinguishes between both of them. There is no reason for any confusion. L5boat (talk) 16:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Renati Chola increption is written in Telugu Language by Telugu Script. Previous increption are belongs to Prakrit increption with Brahmi shript with few Dravidan words. In this Page it had not mentioned that properly. L5boatTirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 16:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The attached citations point it out clearly that the dating of 200 BCE is based on the same "few Dravidian loan words" in Prakrit inscriptions. It is clear and there is no confusion here.

Also,there is a seperate page explaining Tamil's antiquity based on few loan words in Biblical Hebrew, therefore it is not wrong to do the same with Telugu. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 18:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

As per your point few Dravidan loan words are in Prakrit increptions but they are not Telugu language. Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 19:10, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Nope. Those loan words were clearly discussed and traced to Telugu language in the attached citations.

Check "Historical Grammar of Telugu" by Korada Mahadeva Sastri. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 20:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Hello L5boat (talk · contribs), many content in this page has written using A History of Telugu Literature - book as a reference.

https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.02913/page/15/mode/1up

Using the same book I have writte some content. If this book is unreliable source, you have to remove all the point which has this book as a reference?? Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 06:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Whatever claims a source makes should be in line with other reliable sources. One cannot push a fringe or a biased viewpoint. L5boat (talk) 06:39, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

below content is taken from the same source. Why can't you remove this?

The popular belief holds that Telugu is derived from Trilinga of Trilinga Kshetras being the land bounded by the three Lingas which is Telugu homeland. P. Chenchiah and Bhujanga Rao note that Atharvana Acharya in the 13th century wrote a grammar of Telugu, calling it the Trilinga Śabdānusāsana (or Trilinga Grammar). Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 07:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Though the idea of 'Telugu' deriving from the 'land of three lingas' is factually incorrect and was discredited, this can be mentioned as the traditional/folk explanation of the etymology. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 13:23, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Request to clean up false information and unreliable source form Telugu language page

Dear @Kwamikagami:, @AntanO:, @Doug Weller:, @RegentsPark:

In recent edit the user Id Anandwiki.ind and some others has writing their own story with unreliable reference. The edits by them have been written from a fan's point of view, rather than a neutral point of view. Please clean it up to conform to a higher standard of quality, and to make it neutral in tone. I have few points for with the content has false information and unreliable news article, website reference.

1. Present wrong content in Wikipedia: Earliest inscriptions with Telugu words date back to c. 400 BCE in Bhattiprolu of Andhra Pradesh.

Current wikipedia reference:

Remarks: Attachrd reference says that the Bhattiprolu increption were released by Satavahanas after 3Rd century BCE in Prakrit language by Brahmi script. Here is is nothing related with Telugu language

2. Present wrong content in Wikipedia: Telugu words were also found in the inscriptions of Emperor Ashoka (257 BCE), Satavahanas, and Vishnukundinas

Current wikipedia reference: Sinopoli, Carla M. (2001). "On the edge of empire: form and substance in the Satavahana dynasty". Empires: Perspectives from Archaeology and History. Cambridge University Press. p. 163. ISBN 9780521770200.

Remarks: Attached reference page 163 has not said anything about Telugu language

3. Present wrong content in Wikipedia: Inscriptions in Old Telugu script were found as far away as Indonesia and Myanmar.

Reference: no reference says about this

4.Present wrong content in Wikipedia: Erragudi Asokan Rock Edict in Old Telugu belongs to 257 BCE.

Wikipedia reference:

Remarks: Attached reference has not says that Erragudi Ashoka increption has Telugu language and this reference is not reliable.

5.Present wrong content in Wikipedia: The Bhattiprolu stone Buddhist casket in Old Telugu belongs to 3rd century BCE. Remarks: thus Bhattiprolu inception is belongs to Prakrit language.

6. One of the first words in the Telugu language, "nāgabu", was found on a granite pillar in the Amaravati Stupa. It is dated to 2nd century BCE and is probably, the name of a stonemason. Its structural and grammatical analysis played a key role in studying Indus script by Iravatham Mahadevan.

Remarks: unreliable webite source

7. Several personal names and place names traceable to Telugu roots are found in various Sanskrit and Prakrit inscriptions of 2nd and 1st centuries BCE. Reference: attached reference has not said like this

8. A number of Telugu words were found in the Sanskrit and Prakrit inscriptions of the Satavahana dynasty, Vishnukundina dynasty, and Andhra Ikshvakus. Remarks: above mentioned dynasties has released only Prakrit and Sanskrit increptions

9. The coin legends of the Satavahanas, in all areas and all periods, used a Prakrit dialect without exception. Some reverse coin legends are in Telugu.

Remarks: Satavahanas released bilungual coins with Prakrit at one side, Tamil with Tamil brahmi script another side. Proof: The Satavahana coins are inscribed in Prakrit and Tamil, this is the current expert opinion of scholars such as Iravatham Mahadevan and C. Somasundara Rao (A Telugu professor of history and archaeology) (Mahadevan 2020 Early Tamil epigraphy, 2nd edition, p. 237-243, and C. Somasundara Rao 1997, a note on bilingual legends on Satavahana coins pp. 17-21) https://books.google.co.in/books?id=2YUECwAAQBAJ&pg=PA200&dq=C.+Somasundara+Rao+1997,+a+note+on+bilingual+legends+on+Satavahana+coins&hl=ta&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiw86SrxuOHAxWLs1YBHZKWBk4Q6AF6BAgIEAM#v=snippet&q=Satvahana%20tamil&f=false Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 19:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The points 6,7,8 & 9 having nothing wrong and they can be seen in the attached citations too.

The remaining points were NOT added by me.

I have removed those sentences which claimed some Prakrit inscriptions as Telugu ones.

Thanks for pointing these. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 19:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

My contribution to this page, was primarily the "Pre-historic Telugu", which was presented with clear and reliable citations, which were repeatedly vandalised and deleted by @Tirukodimadachengunrur

I'm not responsible for the other contributions which claimed Prakrit inscriptions as the Telugu ones. So I removed them. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 20:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I removed some FRINGE material about Harappan. The relevant bits (the cave inscription) can be cited directly to the source that they used. — kwami (talk) 21:33, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

As adviced by @Kwamikagami,I have added direct references in the section: "Epigraphical evidences".

Also, I would convey that as falsely accused by @Tirukodimadachengunrur, I have nothing to do with some false information added here.

My contribution was primarily about the section: "Pre-historic Telugu", with all the required and reliable citations.

However, people like @Tirukodimadachengunrur practiced vandalism against all of those content and deleted all the important citations repeatedly.

I request the admins to constantly watch this page against any such vandalisms. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 22:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

You yourself accepting that you have posted some Prakrit related thing in Telugu. If I remove that mean called Vandalism? Think before talk Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 12:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I had never claimed of posting some Prakrit inscriptions as the Telugu ones.

In your edits, you've removed some unreliable claims and at the same, you have also deleted some other proper and valid citations too, which when I reverted them back, the former ones were also automatically reverted back.

I am not responsible for those claims. You can clearly check the Page edit history and find who added those things.

Understand before you speak. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

why can't you report the used and content which claims prakrit inception? If you were not a part of that team? Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 06:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami

The user @Tirukodimadachengunrur is making fringe edits in this page to demean the cultural sentiments of Telugu language and showcase his arrogance and biaseness towards his mother tongue 'Tamil' over it. Such kind of things are unhealthy to the legibility and repsect of Wikipedia.

Please watch this user. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 13:49, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Dear User:Anandwiki.ind, Wikipedia is not your own website to have content only from your contribution.

Please see the talk page. Iam adding the content this page as per the reliable source.

Regarding satavahana coin see the below. Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 08:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Tiru 2014

Understand that you cannot add whatever the points which are unrelated to the topic, even if you have enough citations.

The point of Telugu literature being less ancient than Tamil literature is not related to the section which talks about the earliest and Pre-historic data on the Telugu language.

It seems evident that you have added that point out of arrogance and biaseness, which is harmful for Wikipedia.

You are not the only editor of this page. There are many people who contributed, edited and reviewed this page in a fair way. Only you are problematic. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 11:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Typo : @Tirukodimadachengunrur Anandwiki.ind (talk) 11:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I am not adding an unrelated topic. I was added a point of Telugu antiquity among the Dravidan languages. You don't have rights to remove my contribution. The what story you have to defend the Satvahana tamil coin? User:Anandwiki.ind Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 11:34, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

You can compare Telugu with some 100 (extinct or living) languages across the world and say its literature is younger than all of them. It makes no clear point.

And to remind you again, antiquity of a language is not determined by its literature. Script and literature are latter concepts. Age of language predates them.

In the Satavahana case, there are still some disputes whether it's in Telugu or Tamil, so it's better to mention both. Anandwiki.ind (talk) 11:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

1. Telugu is a Dravidian language. It can be compared with other Telugu language for its antiquity.

2. Experts confirmed that Satvahana coin is in Tamil language with tamil Brahmi script. The increption has the words Thiru, Makan, Ku. These words are not available in both present Telugu and old Telugu. Use some basics about Dravidian language. Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 12:09, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Request to clean up unreliable source and unreliable source.

hi User:Austronesier, User:Doug Weller, User:Joshua Jonathan, User:AquitaneHungerForce.

This Telugu language page has lots of content with unreliable source, content in fans point of view, poor reference, news article citation. I request you all to review this and help is to make it reliable. Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 12:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

If you promise to immediately retire and stop adding poor content yourself in various places, I might consider to immediately start with a full review of potentially contentious statements in this article. –Austronesier (talk) 12:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Dear User:Austronesier, iam sorry if I made any edits wrong. I am requesting you to review on this page. Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 12:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Check the 'Region' section in main table.

In the region table, many places with significant/minor presence of Telugu speakers are included. It even sidelined Andhra Pradesh and Telangana which must be the actual regions. 2409:40F4:102C:A2D6:EC00:E3FF:FE57:500D (talk) 19:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Morphosyntax

"There are six word classes in Telugu: nominals (proper nouns, pronouns), verbs (actions or events), modifiers (adjectives, quantifiers, numerals), adverbs (modify the way in which actions or events unfold), and clitics."

I can only count five classes in this list: nominals, verbs, modifiers, adverbs, clitics.

Is the "six" wrong or has something been missed out? Hundovir (talk) 18:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2024

Change 'Telugu consonants' chart under Phonology to include palatal and velar nasals

Change 'Telugu consonants' chart under Phonology from using plain alveolar plosive IPA symbols to using dental plosive IPA symbols

Change

Telugu consonants

		Labial	Denti- alveolar		Retroflex	Post-alv./ Palatal	Velar	Glottal
			plain	sibilant
Nasal		m m	n n		ɳ ṇ
Stop/ Affricate	unaspirated	p p	t t	t͡s ts	ʈ ṭ	t͡ʃ c	k k
	voiced	b b	d d	d͡z dz	ɖ ḍ	d͡ʒ j	ɡ g
	aspirated*	pʰ ph	tʰ th		ʈʰ ṭh	t͡ʃʰ ch	kʰ kh
	breathy voiced*	bʱ bh	dʱ dh		ɖʱ ḍh	d͡ʒʱ jh	ɡʱ gh
Fricative*		f f		s s	ʂ ṣ	ʃ ś		h h
Approximant		ʋ v	l l		ɭ ḷ	j y
Tap			ɾ r

to

Telugu consonants

		Labial	Denti- alveolar		Retroflex	Post-alv./ Palatal	Velar	Glottal
			plain	sibilant
Nasal		m m	n n		ɳ ṇ	ɲ ñ	ŋ ṅ
Stop/ Affricate	unaspirated	p p	t̪ t	t͡s ts	ʈ ṭ	t͡ʃ c	k k
	voiced	b b	d̪ d	d͡z dz	ɖ ḍ	d͡ʒ j	ɡ g
	aspirated*	pʰ ph	t̪ʰ th		ʈʰ ṭh	t͡ʃʰ ch	kʰ kh
	breathy voiced*	bʱ bh	d̪ʱ dh		ɖʱ ḍh	d͡ʒʱ jh	ɡʱ gh
Fricative*		f f		s s	ʂ ṣ	ʃ ś		h h
Approximant		ʋ v	l l		ɭ ḷ	j y
Tap			ɾ r

{Thushar Reppale (talk) 21:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)