Talk:Knanaya

Similarities and connections between Cochin Jews and Kerala Syrian Christians

Kerala Syrian Christian copper plates with inscriptions in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew (849 and c. 883 AD) (Photograph)

Several scholars of Jewish history have noted similarities and connections between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians of Kerala. Here are a few quotations from some of these scholars:

1) "There is at least one genre of Knanaya literature that exists also in the Jewish Malayalam corpus, the pallippattu, 'Synagogue song'." (Quote from - page 92 - Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)

Note: The Malayalam term "Palli" is used to refer to the Syrian Christian "church" and also the Cochin Jewish "synagogue". Also note that the term ‘Syrian Christian’ was coined by the British. Historically, before the arrival of the British to India, the Cochin Jews were called ‘Malabar Juda Mappila’ and the so called Syrian Christians were called ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’. The term Mappila as used in Malayalam means ‘of West Asian Semitic descent’. It is better to use the term ‘Malabar Nasrani Mappila’ as this could reduce a lot of the confusion that arise from using the term ‘Syrian Christian.’

2) "Jussay and Weil compare some songs with the wedding songs of Knanaya Christians as suggestive of historic cultural relations between the two communities. (759) Johnson, with Daniel as her guidance in the language of the corpus, takes the songs as expressions of the socio-religious identity and ideology of Jewish women in Kerala. (760)” (Quote from – page 389 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)

(Also refer to - Weil, Shalva J. (1982). "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cnanite Christian and the Cochin Jews of Kerela," Contributions to Indian Sociology 16: 175-196. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/006996678201600202 )

3) "There are genres of narrative songs about Biblical characters similar to the formulaic songs in the anthology of Knanaya Christian songs – the women's vattamkali pattu and the men's cintu. (786) • The synagogue motif suggests a linkage with the Knanaya Christians. It seems to be adopted into the Jewish Malayalam corpus from the Knanaya songs, where it stands for a more mature genre." (Quote from – page 402 – Gamliel, Ophira. ‘Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs’, Unpublished PhD thesis, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 2009.)

4) "Similarities between the rites and customs of the Syrian Christians (of Kerala) and the Jews of Kerala reflect a possible common origin in the ancient Middle East, and serve as heuristic evidence in support of the historical claims of both communities." (Quote from – page 88 – Ritual and Music in South India: Syrian Christian Liturgical Music in Kerala. Author(s): Israel J. Ross. Source: Asian Music, Vol. 11, No. 1 (1979), pp. 80-98. http://www.syriacstudies.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Syrian-music-in-kerala.pdf)

5) In the paper ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue (1984), the Cochin Jewish writers Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:

"...the Syrian Christian (copper) plates with the signature of four Jewish witnesses in Judeo - Persian, which incidentally is the second oldest inscription in Judeo- Persian in the world, are a few of the ancient relics that can still be seen to remind one of the glorious past of this forgotten outpost of the Jewish world. " (Page 2 Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).

6) In another quote from their text the authors Fiona Hallegua and Shabdai Samuel Koder wrote:

"There are at least a few instances of direct evidence of a Jewish settlement on the South - West Coast of India during the first century of the Christian era. In a wedding song of the ancient Christians of Malabar, mention is made of one Habban, a Jewish merchant, who was sent by a Royal decree to fetch a man who would build a temple more beautiful than the one King Solomon had built in Palestine. Habban accompanied by St. Thomas arrived in Cranganore in 55 A. D., St. Thomas was welcomed by a Jewish flute girl. He stayed in the Jewish quarter of the town and some Jews are said to have been baptized by him in Cranganore." (Page 3 – Hallegua F. & Koder S. (1984) ‘Kerala and Her Jews’, published by Cochin Jewish Synagogue).

Kerala Syrian Christian copper plates with inscriptions in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew (849 and c. 883 AD) (Inscriptions)

Additional note: The copper plates of privileges granted to the Cochin Jews and the Syrian Christians of Kerala by an ancient King of Kerala are similar with 72 privileges engraved on these copper plates. It is important to note that the copper plates in possession with the Cochin Jewish synagogue is in old Malayalam script (Vattezhuthu), while the Kollam (Quilon) copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians is in Old Malayalam, Kufic and Hebrew. Ironically, it is the Hebrew script on the Kollam copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malabar Nasranis) that is often taken as conclusive evidence for the earliest presence of Jews in Kerala and India.

“The Kollam copper-plates inscription (849 ce) in Old Malayalam is the earliest evidence of Jews reaching the region.9” (page 55 - Gamliel, O. (2018) Back from Shingly: revisiting the pre-modern history of Jews ... Indian Economic and Social History Review, 55(1), pp. 53-76.)

• The observations across several scholarly papers on Kerala Jewish history, support an ancient Jewish heritage for both Knanaya and the other Syrian Christians of Kerala. Scholars of Jewish history have acknowledged cultural similarities and strong links between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians of Kerala. This needs to be mentioned in the articles of these communities. Gafeg (talk) 14:21, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure how valid an unpublished thesis is. A published thesis would have at least goen through peer review process. Hallegua and Koder do not specfically mention the Knanaya but rather the Syrian Christian community of India. Again, having similiar songs is not enough to prove that the Knanaya are of Jewish descent. The only thing I could find to possibly support your claim is a Cochin Jewish cookbook that mentions a group called קנאים and states that they were converted as a result of missionaries. YaLindaHadad (talk) 22:24, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: I think user @Gafeg:, did not cite that source correctly. To my knowledge Dr. Ophira Gamliels thesis was published by the Hebrew University. Also not enough is known about the Knayim to state they are Knanaya. Again Knanaya do not claim to be Cochin Jews, they are their own separate people that seemed to have had a close relationship with the Cochin Jews, possibly due to their Judeo-Christian ancestry and even more probably due to living in close proximity within Cranganore.

You keep stating these sources brought up by myself and now user Gafeg are unverified. Unverified by whom? Just because you do not agree with a source or have not seen a source before does not mean it is unverified. Also the Knanaya people are not trying to be accepted by the Rabbunut or World Jewry or whoever else because their identity has always been as Jewish-Christians not simply as Jews.

Also this whole conservation has opened an unnecessary can of worms debating the “Jewishness” of the Knanaya. You began this by asking to remove Cochin Jews as a related ethnic group. Your argument is solely based off of the Knanaya not being Jewish. Ethnic groups of different religions can indeed be related and for that rationale there is no reason why Cochin Jews should be removed from this article. Thomast48 (talk)

If you aren't claiming to be Jewish then why would you post a picture of a torah scroll? The only thing similar are a few songs. There is nothing else that is similiar. Not relgion, language, holidays, food, customs, etc. The majority of Cochin Jews have never heard of Knanaya and have never interacted with them. You have not provided anything noting the interaction between the two groups. On the other hand there are numerous documents detailing the interactions that Cochin Jews had with other diaspora Jewish communities in India, the Middle East, and Europe. Jewish communities so far away yet there are more documents noting the interactions. Even Dr. Weil who you often cite refers to Knanaya as "Cnanite Christians" not "Cnanite Jewish Christians". YaLindaHadad (talk) 20:31, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: I wish you could read Jussay because even if I do mention all the similarities he noted in culture your simply going to reply it’s unverified or something of that nature and for that reason I don’t think there’s much point in debating with you on this. Even if the Knanaya do maintain correlations to Jewish culture your going to state it has nothing to do with Jewish culture, an example of this being Pesaha. You seem to feel very passionately about this and for that reason will not accept sourcework even tho it exists. Your dogmatic on this and I’ve provided plenty of sourcework and even offered to share my personal copies with you but your not accepting of any correlations that do exist (which is not my opinion but the opinion of scholars but of course scholarship does not mean anything to you unless the world wide Jewry and what not accept the sources). I’ve shared countless sources with you but I doubt you’ve looked at any of them. I’m not going to copy and paste the entire book onto Wikipedia.

It’s nonsense to think that the Knanaya would sing songs about Joseph Rabban if they had nothing to do with Jewish culture. If not for any relation to Jews, why do you think the Knanaya sing about Joseph Rabban? Just for fun?

Also I shared the Torah scroll because it’s an existing relic of the communities Jewish-Christian past. Again the community does not claim to be Jews but Jewish-Christians which is a hybrid identity. Again this identity is unique to the Knanaya, the community doesn’t marry Jews or Christians but only other Knanaya due to their strict adherence to endogamy.

We’re going in circles here because you can’t accept the sources that do exist or I’m assuming you can’t find copies of the sources and for that reason deem them “unverifiable” because you haven’t read them.

Again heres a list of sources that compare the two peoples in culture. If you don’t have access to these sources, it does not mean they are unverifiable, please keep that in mind.

Gamliel, Ophira (April 2009). Jewish Malayalam Women's Songs (PDF) (PhD). Hebrew University. Retrieved 2 October 2018.

Jussay, P. M. (2005). The Jews of Kerala. Calicut: Publication division, University of Calicut.

Kollaparambil, Jacob (1992). The Babylonian origin of the Southists among the St. Thomas Christians. Pontifical Oriental Institute. ISBN 8872102898.Thomast48 (talk)

I was reffering to Gamliel not Jussay since it was referenced as an unpublished thesis. You still have not explained what Jewish culture they maintain. When I asked you about how they observe Passover you also did not expand. From what I read from what was written this does not resemble the Cochin Jews (or any Jewish group).

There are several Christian groups such as Seventh Day Adventists that "observe" passover but it does not make them Jewish. I remain skeptical for several reasons. Some of the references that you referenced that I was able to obtain such as Dr. Weil's compared similiarties and did not assert the Knanaya were Jewish. Throughout the work she stated "Cnanite Christians" not Jewish Christians. Addtionally using a personal ownership of an item needs should be verfied and the picture should be referenced within the article.

Addtionally, Louis Rabinowitz's Far East Mission contradicts your claim and states that there is no connection between the two groups. Being Jewish Christian is not a unique identity. There are several other groups that also claim this. In fact on the Jewish Christian page the Knanaya are not mentioned. The lineage remains unproven as seen Groups claiming affiliation with Israelites.

We could state that "the Knanaya are Syrian Christians who believe that they are the descendants of Jews however, they are not recognized as Jews by the greater Jewish community" similiar to the way Black Hebrew Israelites page is structured as a compramise. YaLindaHadad (talk) 03:50, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

@YaLindaHadad: I didn't want to do this but since you do not have the source I guess there's no other way. Here are a few of the similarities Jussay notes in direct quotes:

Common Terminology and Structure:

"Now to return to the Jewish songs. The two hundred odd songs collected, have been divided into five categories viz. historical, bridal, biblical, invocational, and miscellaneous. The historical songs deal with some aspect of the communities history. These include the songs about the construction of various synagogues in Kerala. The bridal songs describe the wedding festivities, invoke God's blessings on the couple or impart instructions to the bride on how to be a good Jewish wife. A couple of these songs give directions to the inexperienced virgin bride how to co-operate with her dearly beloved "in performing the dearly beloved act on the first night". Biblical songs recount the stories of the Bible giving them a local colour. The groups of invocational songs contains hymns and prayers to be sung on various occasions. Folk tales and moral instructions of a general nature are included in the miscellaneou category. The songs of the Knanites can also be grouped very much in the same manner. Apart from this thematic similarities there are similarities in composition. Most of the songs of the Jews begin by invoking the name of the Almighty. The Knanite songs also follow the same method. But it is the linguistic similarities that strike the reader. For example, a peculiar word that is found often used in the Knanite song is Nayan which means the Lord. The Jewish word Gnayan is also a commonly used word if not more. The origin of these words is obscure. But what is significant is that this expression is not found in the songs of any other community in Kerala. Here is a list of other words found in the songs of these two communities which, as far as I know, do not occur in any of the songs of other communities". (Jussay, 119)

1/2. Alam Chainachala/ Patacha: The creator of the universe

3. Adiperion: The Almighty who is from the very beginning

4. Alaha Nayan: The Lord God

5. Adiperia Nayan Thante 'ekalarulale: At the command of the Almighty

6. Onnaya Nayan: The one true God

7. Vazhutaya Nayan: The Lord of life

8. Thampuran Mumbake: In the sight of the Lord

9. Alaha Nayan than Thunayale: By the grace of Lord God

10. Tharuthaikkal: The elders

11. Thasiyote: With joy

12: Varughese: The Jewish version is Bareed or Vareed which is a corrupt form of Brit which means any good religious act - and it is generally used in circumcision

13. Mesri: Egypt

14: Bava: The Jewish version of "Vava" = Father"

These words and expressions occur so often in either group of songs suggesting their origin is from a common source." (Jussay, 121).

Common Songs: "In the description of the bridal procession there are two lines in the Christian song which are also found in the Jewish description of Joseph Rabban's royal procession:

[Knanaya]: Ponnum methiyadimel melle melle aval natannu [With golden shoes, he slowly walked] Velli methiyadimel melle melle aval nattan [With silver shoes, she slowly walked]

[Jewish]: Ponnum methiyadimel melle natannan, chiriyanandan [With golden shoes, Chiriyandanan (Joseph Rabban) slowly walked] Velli methiyadimel melle natannan, chiriyanandan [With silver shoes, Chririyandan (Joseph Rabban) slowly walked]

Chirianandan is the title given to Joseph Rabban by the Jews which may mean 'the joy of Syria' or the 'Son of Syria' and it was a custom to bestow this title on the bridegroom. Besides these, there are a number of of other linguistic similarities. These similariteis are not accidental and cannot be easily explained. But the most baffling is the existence of a couple of songs that are identical. One of them is "Vazhvu Pattu". This song is very popular among both the Jews and the Knanites" (Jussay, 121).

The first line of the Jewish song is: Vazhuvanna Vazhvu ninakkayirikka (Let thine be the blessed life) Wheras in the Christian song it is: Vazhvenna vazhvu ninakkake thannen (Life blessed I have bestowed on thee.) [He compares the rest of the song here and states]: "Thus barring a few lines and expressions the Vazhvu Pattu of the Cochin Jews and the Knanite Christians is substantially the same. " (Jussay, 121-122).

"There is one another song which is found in both collections. It is not the whole song that is identical but the first half dozen of lines, after which each takes its own separate course.

Ponnantheedum thandukaleri Mangala vela kanman (He (Joseph Rabban) comes in gold decorated palanquin to witness the wedding festivities)

[He compares the rest of the song here and states the following]: Examining both of these versions one feels that the Jewish version is the original one and the Christian version has undergone changes which have marred its pristine beauty. Moreover the Jewish version is based on a legend that one of the ancient kings of Kerala came to witness the festivities of Jewish wedding. (Jussay, 123).

"There are indications that other legends of the Jews are also shared by the Knanites. For example the song entitled "Ennu Nee Gnangle..." We find the following: Kollavachu Nayarkoodi Pattanathil Pukkare Kollivachu palliyazhichannu chuttu pattanam ....timiarichannu moovar kottavur ....la mannavar (Nair soldiers entering the city plundered it They set fire to the church and burnt down the city While three good kings bravely fought and fell)

"This is undoubtedly based on the Jewish legend that their glorious synagouge at Cranganore was burnt down by the soldiers of the Zamorin who mounted an attack on the city under the cover of night. Just as three kings are mentions in these lines, one of the Jewish songs also makes mention of three kings in Cranganore taking part in a royal procession:

Munnanamondu, munthalamondu Moovaru rasakkal aararaulpettu

(Three elephants in front and with beating cymbals three king bestowed with grace)

Who are these three kings? It is a fact attested by historical records that Joseph Rabban, the Jewish merchant, was installed a prince by Cheraman Perumal. Likeiwse Thomas of Cana is said to have been made a prince when he landed in Cranganore by the sovereign of the land. So it is not impossible that when the Zamorin's forces attacked the city, the successors of these three kings, Cheraman Perumal, the Jewish and Christian princes, fought bravely to save the city. " (Jussay, 123).

"The songs about Synagogues and churches follow a set pattern. First a few lines of invocation. This is followed by a description of how the place of worship came to be constructed. After obtaining the local rulers permission the leaders of the community go about fixing the site of the building. Masons then set to work, when masonry is completed the local ruler permits the leaders of the community to take from his forests the timber required for the building. When it is completed there is great jubilition among the people. In some cases, the local ruler promises to supply from the palace store the oil required for the lamps in the place of worship" (Jussay, 123).

"Similarities are also found in the way biblical stories are treated in the songs. One of the stories that appears in both the groups is the story of Joseph. Jews have great respect for this hero of the Old Testament as he is aideal son, an ideal father and an ideal ruler. This feeling is shared by the Knanites who claim Jewish origin, and that is why the story of Joseph is popular with them." (Jussay, 124).

Shared Traditions: Carrying Ash in Remembrance of Cranganore: "The great attachment of the Jews as well as the Thekkumbhagom Christians (Knanaya) to their ancient settlements in Cranganore is demonstrated by their subsequent actions. The greatest desire of a Jew anywhere in the world was that he should be buried in the plain of Josaphat (kidron Valley) near the gates of Jerusalem. This is because when the messiah comes he will rise from the grave and join him in triumphal entry into the city. The settlement at Chirukantangar, was to them "Jerusalem of the East". Hence they used to take away a handful of earth from this hallowed spot to place it in the coffin of the dead as a token of his being buried in the plain of Josaphat. Likewise, the Thekkumbhgam Christians (Knanaya) too used to gather a handful of charred earth as a keepsake from their ancient settlement of Cranganore. (Jussay, 30).

"The Paradesis have the Chandam Charthal or the decking of the bridegroom just before lunch. In the presence of friends and invitees, the barber dresses his hair and gives him a clean shave during which woman make ululation" (Jussay, 99). The Knanaya maintain the exact same custom by the exact same name.

"As the tea party progresses the Jewish woman sing some of the most popular Malayalam songs, one of which is Vazhvu Vanna Vazhvu Ninakayirikka (Let the Blessed life be thine)" (Jussay, 100). The Knanaya woman sing the strikingly similar blessing song Vazhvenna Vazhvu Ninake Thanen (Life Blessed I have bestowed onto thee) during the reception.

"These and a number of other similarities indicate the possibility of the Kerala Jews and Knanites living in close contact with each other and sharing legends and tradition from a common repository" (Jussay, 125).

Summary These are just a few of the direct citations from Jussay about the cultural similarities found between the Knanaya and Cochin Jews. Jussay strongly believes that many of the cultural similarities (especially the songs) have a common origin that diverted later in history. His entire purpose for the study is because the Knanaya claim a Jewish-Christian descent which he supports through his cultural comparison of the two groups. You have to understand that unlike these other contemporary groups who claim a Jewish-Christian origin, the Knanaya have claimed this heritage for centuries and this is the likely reason why scholarship as prominent as the Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, and a plethora of others accept the Knanaya's claims. Also wikipedia requires source-work in order to edit articles, there is an abundance of source-work that accepts the Knanaya as Jewish-Christians and for that reason it can be added to the article. To my knowledge there is not a single source which directly states "Jews or the greater Jewish community do not accept the Knanaya as Jewish" and for that reason, such a statement cannot be added to the article.

Also please don't compare the Knanaya to such contemporary movements, this community is truly a medieval diaspora from the Middle East who settled in India where their ancient culture was able to be sustained. There are many even who believe that customs such as the Knanaya Henna Ceremony may be the oldest form of the ceremony in the world still in practice. The Knanaya believe that because Eve walked with her feet to the tree of knowledge and plucked it's fruit with her palms, the bride to be must be smeared with the henna shrub on her palms and feet through which she is purified of the original sin she received from Eve. This is a concept that completely pre-dates the Christian doctrine of original sin (which cannot be purified but is carried forever). The Syrian churches which the Knanaya are members of would completely disdain the practice if they truly knew its archaic meaning. Many groups across the world such as Hindus, Muslims, North African/Yemenite Jews, and numerous communities in the Middle East practice the henna ceremony but simply believe it is a beautification ceremony for the bride. No other community in the world defines the henna ceremony as method for purification of the sins of Genesis, which is just another example of the antiquity of the culture of the Knanaya.

The Knanaya are not mentioned on the Jewish-Christian article on Wikipedia but that is simply because it has never been edited as such. However other encyclopedias mention the Knanaya as Jewish-Christians:

New World Encylopedia: "Among Christian communities of Jewish origin and maintaining some Jewish traditions that survive to this day are the Nasrani community in Kerala, India and the Fallasha of Ethiopia. The Nasrani are also known as Syrian Christians or St. Thomas Christians. The Knanaya, a sub-ethnic group among the Syrian Malabar Nasrani, are the descendants of early Jewish-Christian settlers who arrived in Kerala in 345 C.E. Although affiliated with a variety of Roman Catholic and Oriental Orthodox denominations, they have remained a cohesive community, shunning intermarriage with outsiders." Link: https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Jewish_Christians

Britannica: "Among waves of Christian refugees who later settled on the Malabar Coast was a community of 400 Syriac-speaking Jewish-Christian families from Uruhu, near Babylon. That community—traditionally said to have been led by Thomas Kināyi (also called Thomas of Cana), a merchant-warrior; Uruhu Mar Yusuf, a bishop; and four pastors—settled on the south bank of the Periyar River." Link:https://www.britannica.com/topic/Thomas-Christians — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomast48 (talk • contribs) 13:50, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Thomast48 (talk)

Yes, numerous scholars have supported an ancient connection between the Knanaya along with the Syrian Christians (Malabar Nasrani) and the Cochin Jews (Malabar Jews). The numerous similarities and connections between the Syrian Christians of Kerala and Cochin Jews cited by these scholars have to be mentioned. In fact, it is the Hebrew inscriptions on the Kollam copper plates in possession with the Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malabar Nasranis) that is often taken as conclusive evidence for the earliest ancient presence of Jews in Kerala and India.

“The Kollam copper-plates inscription (849 ce) in Old Malayalam is the earliest evidence of Jews reaching the region.9” (page 55 - Gamliel, O. (2018) Back from Shingly: revisiting the pre-modern history of Jews in Kerala, Indian Economic and Social History Review, 55(1), pp. 53-76.) by Prof. Gamliel (University of Glasgow) Gafeg (talk) 01:22, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Gafeg I completely agree with you. It is a commonality that ethnic groups of Abrahamic faiths are generally related ethnic groups. In this same fold, it could be said that the Mappila Muslims of Kerala are also a related ethnic group. The St. Thomas Christians, Knanaya, Cochin Jews, and Mappila Muslims all arrived in Kerala in all likelihood to simply take part in the extremely profitable spice trade. They lived in close proximity for centuries in the spice trading hubs of Kodungallur, Kollam, and Kozhikode among many others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomast48 (talk • contribs) 08:35, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Thomast48, thank you for your work. Sorry I am not sure how to use Wikipedia properly. I just wanted to say that there are a few Knanaya families with Jewish artifacts but this is a senstive issue. I know my family, Makil, has some. I also know the Pallivathukal, Charath, Muttathil, and Kaliankal families have as well. There are probably more but I do not know. These families come from Jews who converted and joined the Knanaya community maybe 400 years ago. However, because of how endogomous the Knanaya community is knowing that there is fear that these families and those married to them could be excommunicated or discriminated. JosephMakil (talk) 02:29, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Knanayas are not St. Thomas Christians

The Saint Thomas Christians are an ethnoreligious community of Indian (Malayali) Syriac Christians from Kerala, India, who trace their origins to the evangelistic activity of Thomas the Apostle in the 1st century. Since Knanaya Christians do not consider themselves to be converts from evangelistic activity of St. Thomas, they cannot be considered St. Thomas Christians.--99v (talk) 06:38, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles go by the sources, and the sources say the Knanaya are part of the St. Thomas Christian community.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:16, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Sources

@Longsword9: could you explain here on the talk page why you have tagged the article? What sources are "not verifiable" and why have you not been able to verify them? I have removed the COI tag because there is no COI. Please be WP:CIVIL to other editors and do not persist in accusations that are not proven, or proven not true. Elizium23 (talk) 07:39, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Elizium23, I thought I was within the bounds of civility and good taste because I only stated what I believed without resorting to invective. Although many sources are cited in the article, several among them used repeatedly were not verifiable. The citations are not linked to the actual source for prompt verification. I tried myself using Google web and book search. I could see that the works of Jacob Vellian, P M Jussay, Shalva Weil, Frykenberg (2010) etc, existed but could not obtain a preview to actually verify content. I went to the talk page and found that the main contributor had some connection to the subject and some others were questioning him. So I tagged the article to alert the readers as well as other editors, hoping that somebody who is bibliophile will do the fact-checking of content. That is what I stated in the edit summary. Since you ask why I couldn’t verify the sources, I guess I should have done more before putting accusatory tags. On this matter, I’m open to feedback and will endeavor to abide by WP:CIVIL at all times. In fact I’m keenly interested to know all the possible ways to find good sources to add as well as to verify content. So if you were able to view the content of all the cited works of the authors I mentioned above, please let me know what you did differently. Now that we are having this conversation, I would also like to know what is the right thing to do when we encounter many citations in an article that cannot be verified on best effort and under what circumstances those tags can be used. Because as I understand, Wikipedia welcomes bold moves; right? --Longsword9 (talk) 10:42, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Longsword9, I am not sure why, if there is something preventing you from verifying a source, there is not something preventing others from verifying it. We use paywalled sources, offline sources, sources in library books in obscure places, all the time, and it may be inconvenient for a random editor to look it up on the Internet, but it is verifiable, and we do not require anything beyond that. Elizium23 (talk) 20:26, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

@Elizium23, I think Longsword9 was talking about the Genome Mapping section. There was a dead link that was removed from the bib. It seems to have been a blog but nonetheless a professional blog run by a geneticist. Wikipedia seems to be unclear about its policy of citing blogs, whether they are professional or not, so for that reason I have removed the section as a whole. However if professional blogs are okay, particularly those run by experts in the field, I guess this section can be readded, however this is beyond my knowledge of policy.

There was also another issue in regards to the source reader text Vellian 1986. Another user had gone through and attempted to alphabetize Vellian 1986 by instead adding Vellian 1986 (a,b,c,etc) to the intext citations. This caused Vellians in-text citations to lead to nowhere in the bibliography because there is no a,b,c,d only a single source of Vellian 1986. I’m not sure why this other user attempted to alphabetize the in-text citations when only a single source existed. However I have gone through the entire article and fixed the Vellian 1986 source by removing the alphabetical designations.

After going through the rest of the article, to my knowledge these are the only two issues that exist. I was not the user who made these edits to the Vellian source or to the genome mapping sections bibliography citation. For that reason I did not know of these issues, nonetheless I’ve fixed them Thomast48 (talk) 09:52, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Genetics of Knanaya people

We are discussing the Genetics of Knanaya people and checking whether it support the traditional claims Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 19:00, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

KERALA GROUPS

Knanaya Christian

South Indian

45%

Baloch

34%

Caucasian

10%

North East European

2%

South East Asian

2%

Siberian

0%

North East Asian

1%

Papuan

1%

American

0%

Beringian

0%

Mediterranean

0%

South West Asian

4%

San

0%

East African

0%

Pygmy

0%

West African

0% Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 19:02, 24 February 2023 (UTC)